In this episode, we welcome authors Melinda and Robert Schoutens of Freshairkids.com.
Originally from the US but now living in Switzerland since 2007, the Schoutens are the authors of three family-friendly, useful guides about hiking and fun outdoor activities to do in Switzerland. If you are interested in getting outdoors and taking advantage of all the beautiful scenery, then these guys will have lots of tips and suggestions for you.
Fresh Air Kids Switzerland
Melinda and Robert’s books
https://www.freshairkids.com/books
SAC Huts
Rega
Record number of non-professional accidents in Switzerland in 2022
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/air-rescue-service-flies-record-number-of-missions/47811318
Hiking trail network and signalization
https://www.schweizer-wanderwege.ch/de/signalisation (this is a comprehensive overview)
The Hörnlihütte (as briefly mentioned in the Podcast, however, NOT a location for families or day hikers! This route is a T4 and experience, skill and a high level of fitness are required.)
The T system - T scale system for hiking - click on "SAC alpine hiking grade scale PDF"
https://www.sac-cas.ch/en/ausbildung-und-sicherheit/tourenplanung/grading-systems/
The Leglerhütte SAC in Kanton Glarus
The Seealpsee area in Appenzell & two mountain inns on the lake
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seealpsee
Daniel:
Hello everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Expert Guide to Your Life in Switzerland. This is a series of conversations in which we speak with people who could be considered experts on different aspects of life in Switzerland and share what we learn with you. This series is brought to you by Rigby. We are a staffing and IT services company based in Zurich.
If you or anyone you know of is looking for a new role in Switzerland, or if you're looking to hire, let us know. We'd be happy to help. The best way to do that is by sending an email to contact@rigby.ch.
All right. In today's episode, we'll be speaking with Melinda and Robert Schoutens, originally from the US but now living in Switzerland since 2007, the Schoutens are the authors of three family-friendly, useful guides about fun and outdoor things to do in Switzerland. If you are interested in getting outdoors and taking advantage of all the beautiful scenery, any time of year and the special mountain huts in Switzerland, and these guys will have lots of tips and suggestions for you. Melinda, Robert, thank you for joining us.
Melinda Schoutens:
Thanks for having us.
Daniel:
All right. So guys, you've been living in Switzerland since 2007. Could you tell us a little bit about your story and what brought you here?
Melinda Schoutens:
Sure. Um, we came over initially for a work contract for Robert and we thought we'd be here one to two years, and that quickly morphed into what is now 15 years and two children later.
Daniel:
<laugh>. Yeah. Classic story. It was the same thing for me. It was supposed to be six months and, uh, 17 years and two children later. Wow. And you've written three books, which are really useful guides for families about fun outdoor activities, which are Fresh Air Kids. So that's 52 inspiring hikes, Fresh Air Kids Hikes to Huts, and then Winter Kids Switzerland. Could you tell us about the books and what inspired you to write them?
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. We, when we were living in the US we had actually made a trip to Colorado and we hiked in Colorado and we were, fell in love with hiking and mm-hmm. <affirmative> when we moved to Switzerland, Switzerland's really a hikers' paradise and we kept hiking, and then when we were pregnant with both of the kids, we kept hiking and we loved it so much we didn't want to give it up once they came along, so we would strap 'em on our backs and just set out. Yeah. And we'd come back from a weekend of hiking and people would always ask us, well, how do you know where to go? Or What is a family-friendly location? Or, what about theme trails? And so we kind of had this moment where we thought maybe we should put this in writing as a guide for people so they, they can get all of these, um, questions answered in a single book or single location. Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
<affirmative>. Yeah. I always think that if I ever leave Switzerland for some reason, and I look back on my time here, one thing that I might regret is if I didn't take those, go on those hikes, if I didn't go and explore the mountains and so on.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. I mean, Switzerland is so remarkably beautiful. And something else, Daniel, is that for us, it became an extension of parenting. <affirmative>. Um, because whenever it got too loud or too crazy or too rambunctious in the house, we would go outside and immediately it felt like the world was so much bigger and our kids could be louder and we'd be in beautiful scenery, even if it was at a local botanical garden or even in the Alps or a local mountain. It just was such a nice place for our kids to act like children <laugh>.
Daniel:
Yeah. Well serve as a kind of a reset maybe, gets everybody off of their devices.
Melinda Schoutens:
Absolutely. It's been a huge saving grace for us, um, throughout the years. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and I mean, there's a lot of, uh, information and studies on that too that say it really helps in a lot of different areas for children, but also for adults. We seek the benefits as well.
Daniel:
For sure. And in Fresh Air Kids, you wrote about, among other things you wrote about SAC huts. So for those who aren't familiar, could you explain please what an SAC hut is?
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah, sure. Um, yeah, the SAC is the Swiss Alpine Club, and they're originally founded in 1863. They were formulated as a way to serve as a base location while exploring, you know, different areas of the mountains and, you know, acting as a point to reach the summits. Yeah. So, there're many, many huts throughout all of the Alps, in fact, but also there's, there's, um, Berg houses, Berg hotels and mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, just various mountain houses that are independently owned. So there's a wide variety of different mountain locations that, uh, that people can seek, uh, when going out and hiking.
Daniel:
Yeah. I wonder if people know that there's a whole network of, of these places that could serve as your kind of base camp. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and some of them are really in spectacular locations. And, um, one thing that's interesting, because some of them are quite remote is how they get their food and other resources up there. Could you tell us about that please?
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah, so, so many of these places are so remote you can only access them by foot or donkey or, or helicopter <laugh> mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that it's, it's a challenge to, you know, one be served with food or, or supplies and other things, but also, you know, just the general service, you know, of carrying food in and out and, and trash away and things like that. So it, it gives you a little bit more respect for, you know, the transportation needs around that. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, some people we've even seen carrying on their back or mountain biking up with like massive backpacks of food. Right. So there's just, there's a wide variety of how they get their food there. So once you, you see it and you're experiencing it in the mountain, you gain a much more, uh, like a deeper sense of appreciation for what they're doing. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Daniel:
Absolutely. And it's spectacular to watch, isn't it? When you see this, uh, perfectly choreographed delivery by helicopter.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. A lot of them are serviced still by helicopters, so to watch them come in and drop the goods and take the trash away, it's seamless. It's a seamless process. It's very cool.
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah. They're paying by the minute for the flights <laugh>.
Daniel:
Right. So they come and go so quickly and so efficiently, don't they? Yeah.
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah. Definitely.
Melinda Schoutens:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Absolutely.
Daniel:
Now, speaking of helicopters, do you two both subscribe to Rega?
Melinda Schoutens:
We do. Um, Rega is the Swiss air rescue, and it's just a phenomenal resource, um, and service that those guys and women provide to the Alps, the Alp region, so it's great. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you can get a patronage for, uh, for a very inexpensive rate for the year and for your family. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and they just offer medical advice should you ever need it in the mountains, but also if you ever do need it, they also offer rescue
Daniel:
Rescue. Right. Yeah. And we'll include a link to that in the show notes, but it, it's a really good deal, isn't it?
Melinda Schoutens:
Oh, absolutely. It's, yeah, I think it's priceless, truly.
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah. And I mean, it, it's a, you could think of it as an extension of insurance or something else, but it's really, you know, they, they work on your behalf with your insurance as well to kind of, you know, give you that benefit or, or the negotiate the price in a, in a way that makes sense for, for everybody really.
Daniel:
Sure. Where Rega might be helpful is, uh, in particular as if someone should have an accident in the mountains, and, uh, in fact there was actually a spike in the number of accents around last July. Right. Guys, do you have any idea why that is?
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah, there was an article Daniel published in SwissInfo in, um, August of 2022, and the article alluded to they were seeing more rescues than ever this past summer, and they think it's because perhaps the pandemic kept a lot of people inside and people were more eager to get out <affirmative>, but there was a spike in hiking and mountaineering mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and also the melting permafrost mm-hmm. <affirmative>, which is quite sad. And then that leads to more rock falls, which can pose, uh, significant danger in the mountains.
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah. No, this, this last July was also not a spike in heat, but just warm throughout the entire July mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And there was another statistic where, where the, the glaciers melted a thickness of about one and a half meters mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So if you can imagine like the, it melted that elevation loss, let's say in, in the glaciers. So the heat was a lot as well. And I think that alludes to permafrost that is thawing and causing this instability of rock falls.
Daniel:
Yeah. It's interesting, isn't it, to think about. So there's that, but there's also the idea that, uh, a lot of people were cooped up at home during lockdown during the pandemic, and for that reason, maybe there was an increase in the number of people going to hikes afterwards. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Do you have any other ideas what might have contributed to the, um, spike in the number of accidents?
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah, I mean, we, we always see whenever we're out, and we can be in remote locations or in very touristy areas, but we see a lot of people hiking really ill-equipped, meaning they're in tennis shoes and not hiking boots and hiking boots have much better thread than a tennis shoe ever would. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, we've been in locations where there's no water or mountain huts to get food, and we see people out there with no backpacks or water mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So that can be quite dangerous if your hike is long or if the day is really hot or if you were to have an accident and you didn't have supplies in your backpack that could help you.
Daniel:
Yeah, sure. Makes sense. So anecdotally, we think that perhaps people are, are not properly equipped.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. We see, we definitely see that. Um, and perhaps people don't, may not be familiar with the Swiss trail system and may not understand the signalization in the country.
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah. There was this guy near Vermont one time when we passed. He was on his way to the Hörnlihütte, which is right at the base of the Matterhorn, and he, he looked like he was going mountain climbing, but he kind of stopped and asked us if he was going the right way. And I kind of thought like, this is a really advanced hike for this guy and he looks prepared, but like, if you're going to that location and you're going to go do something like that, you should really kind of know your way. <laugh>. Yeah.
Daniel:
It's quite worrying, isn't it? Yeah,
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah, yeah.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. And starting out early in the day, particularly in winter where you have less, um, daylight hours, so you really have to take that into consideration. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, if you're embarking on a long hike, you need to make sure you have adequate light for that time.
Daniel:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and that you familiarize yourself with the, um, Swiss signalization system. It's the so-called T system. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Could you tell us a bit about that, please?
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah, so, uh, basically the, the T system was basically created to grade the levels of trails. So you have a T1 to T6. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, a T1 is your basic yellow trails. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. And then the T6 is basically mountain climbing with ropes. So it has the entire gradation, um, built in there. A T2 and 3 is typically your white, red, white trails or your mountain trails. Right. And then a T4 is the start of your alpine trails. And that a T4 is let's say more advanced than the white, red white, but it's, it may be a mix of, you know, uh, let's say not clearly marked trails, but also maybe some, uh, handholds or ropes, you know, that or, or ladder, you know, in order to get through some of the sections. But it tends to be a little bit more advanced, I would say.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. I think the alpine trails are, are far more advanced, um, particularly for people with children and a lot of those alpine trails, you need special equipment, you might need crampons or ropes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, ice axes. Um, a compass is really helpful. So our rule of thumb for that is we don't embark on alpine trails or white, blue, white trails with our children.
Daniel:
Okay. So you draw the line at white, blue, white trails, alpine trails, yeah. Okay. That's interesting.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah, we, yeah, we do mountain trails with our kids because a lot of the trails leading to the SAC Hütte or some of the other mountain inns mm-hmm. <affirmative> are on white, red, white trails. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, and they have handholds, but we feel more comfortable with those than we, we just don't feel comfortable at all having children on alpine trails.
Daniel:
<laugh> Wow, I'm getting excited just thinking about it!
Robert Schoutens:
<laugh>. Yeah. One, one more thing with the T system is that it, it may not be obvious to see it just from looking at the map or looking at the signalization, but when you start going into the Alps for, you know, visiting huts and other things, the huts will usually name the roots or they'll tell you the roots and they'll give you that T classification system. So when you're on like the SAC portal, you know, in order to find locations or, or, or ways they, they list it mainly there. So it, it's not as widely used or obvious to, uh, let's say most people.
Daniel:
I think that's good to know. And there's, um, there's something like 65,000 kilometers of trails in Switzerland and, and they are classified according to difficulty by colour. But, um, if you are up there and looking at a sign, there are other things on the sign, aren't there? Could you tell us about that, please?
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah, sure. When you look at a sign, not all will have it, but a lot do. Um, in the centre of the trail marker is usually white. It tells you your location and current elevation mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and then if you wanna' go to an endpoint, it'll tell you the name of the location and how long it'll take to get there. So maybe two hours and 45 minutes. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, again, they don't all universally state the time and the location, but you'll see them throughout the, the hiking route and it'll also have an icon. So it might have an icon of a gondola, a tram, a train mm-hmm. <affirmative>, um, a sun, which is a lookout point, but that tells you when you reach that destination you can expect a train or a tram or a gondola to be there upon your arrival.
Daniel:
Right, exactly. And it's interesting, isn't it that, um, instead of telling you the distance, they tell you how long they think it will get you take you to get there,
Melinda Schoutens:
<laugh>. Yeah, absolutely. And we all hike at different paces. Right. Um, and certainly when you have children, those hiking times will definitely be extended mm-hmm. <affirmative> because little children have smaller legs, they are enamoured with the environment, so they like to look at butterflies or they wanna' stop and collect rocks, so mm-hmm. <affirmative> certainly takes a lot longer with children.
Daniel:
Do you have a rule of thumb about how much longer?
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah, we usually double it. Um, double. So if, yeah. So if it says it's a two hour hike, allow for four. You know, and extra snacks.
Daniel:
Yeah. Questions.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. So you'll need more time. Exactly.
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah. Something, something else with the, um, trail markers is that they, they'll typically point you in the direction you need to go mm-hmm. <affirmative>, and so they'll split off in different directions, but also it lists from top to bottom the nearest location to the furthest location. So it's almost like reading a menu of like what you wanna do or where you're going.
Daniel:
That's good to know.
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah, yeah.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. And if you don't see the trail markers, then you might see a painted rock, a garbage can, um mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So the trail markers appear in different ways throughout the trail.
Robert Schoutens:
Just queuing you to, to make sure you're still on the same path.
Melinda Schoutens:
<laugh>. Yeah.
Daniel:
Right. Okay. That's good. And are there any hikes in particular that you would recommend or any huts?
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. Um, one hut that we absolutely found just so beautiful, um, was Leglerhütte. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> and Canton Glarus, and it's definitely a hike and it's an uphill hike to get there, so you're gonna' work to get there mm-hmm. <affirmative>, but once you're there it's 360-degree views of just beautiful terrain. Right. Um, and it's remote so you just feel like you're away from everything and that one is stunning.
Robert Schoutens:
Mm, definitely.
Daniel:
Wow, so, so you have this full panorama.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Daniel:
So, so children could do that, they could do that hike.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah, we did that with our children. They were, I think at the time that we did it, there were maybe 9 and 11 or mm-hmm. <affirmative> eight and 10. Yeah. So mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So yeah. Older children who are familiar and comfortable hiking, you'll definitely need to incentivise them along the route, but it's definitely possible. <laugh>. Um, another one we like, and it's still a bit uphill, but is, um, the Seealpsee area in Apenzell. They have a couple of Berg houses along the lake, and that's just a beautiful area. Um, it can be a little crowded because a lot of tourists like to go there, but in the night it kind of clears out and it's very peaceful on the lake, so it's lovely. Mm-hmm.
Daniel:
<affirmative>. Yeah. One thing that we should maybe say at this point though is that the hiking season for most of these huts and mountain inns is quite short, right? Mm-hmm.
Melinda Schoutens:
<affirmative>. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, that's a great point. Daniel. Um, most of the huts, and depending on location, elevation, location, and the snow levels will be open from the end of June till September or October. But we always tell people to check the website to make sure the hut is open. And to have a reservation before even going. And then a lot of the websites will tell you the best way or the best route to get there. Um, if you're looking for an easy route or a more difficult route, which is important to know if you're hiking with
Robert Schoutens:
Children, they, they, they may also link to like, uh, like webcams in the area or something mm-hmm. <affirmative> so that you can, you can see that day what, you know, what the snow levels might be.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah.
Daniel:
Yeah. It's a good point, isn't it? But from the end of June through until September or maybe early October, but, uh, probably the best idea would be book ahead, make sure it's open, check before you go.
Robert Schoutens:
Yeah. And actually, I mean, now's also a good time to book or start planning summer. I mean, some of these huts stay up six months in advance, so you know, when the weather's great and people plan ahead <laugh>. Now's not unrealistic to plan your summer.
Melinda Schoutens:
<laugh>. Yeah. It's not, that's a good point. Yeah. Yeah.
Daniel:
And are there any other tips that you would share with people who are new to Switzerland to help them to settle down and enjoy life here?
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah, I think we, we noticed a lot of people who are here, or they think they're here for just a short while. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>, they're really eager to see all of Europe. And I think that's a great ambition, but I, we always say to not overlook Switzerland mm-hmm. <affirmative> because it's such a beautiful country mm-hmm. <affirmative> and it's so diverse with, you know, you might be in the Italian-speaking part or you might be in the German-speaking part, or French, and they all have a different flare and a different feeling. And the mouth, the Alps are just really so, so special. Yeah.
Robert Schoutens:
And it's so small, it's easy to get everywhere. So it's the accessibility just can't be beat Yeah. From any other country.
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. And the nature is just phenomenal,
Daniel:
Right? I wholeheartedly agree guys. Um, yeah. Okay. Well, before we finish, could you tell our listeners please where they can find out more about you and about the books that you've written?
Melinda Schoutens:
Yeah. Um, our books are published through Helvetiq. And we have a website, which is freshairkids.com. So our books are available through our website or Helvetiq or anywhere books are sold in Switzerland. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. Um, yeah.
Daniel:
All right. Well, Melinda, Robert, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us.
Melinda Schoutens:
Thank you for having us, Daniel.
Daniel:
And thanks to you too, listeners, for joining us. This has been another episode of The Expert Guide to Your Life in Switzerland, brought to you by Rigby. We're a staffing and IT services company based in Zurich. So thanks then, until the next time.