Topics mentioned, with links:

Basel and German-Swiss cuisine with Jessica -

Jessica’s social media:

https://www.instagram.com/basel_eats/

Jessica’s book:

https://www.bergli.ch/collections/all/products/the-basel-cookbook

TUYU tofu:

https://www.tuyutofu.ch/

Stucki restaurant:

https://www.tanjagrandits.ch/en/restaurant-stucki/restaurant/#s0

Roots restaurant:

https://roots-basel.ch/

Taverne Johann:

https://www.tavernejohann.ch/

Restaurant Lauch:

https://lauch-basel.ch/

Restaurant Concordia:

https://restaurantconcordia.ch/en/

Markthalle Basel:

https://www.altemarkthalle.ch/

Klara Basel:

https://en.klarabasel.ch/

Basel Tourismus – renting a Rhine bag:

https://www.basel.com/en/activities-excursions/swimming-rhine/wickelfisch

Bider & Tanner bookshop:

https://www.biderundtanner.ch/

Weltbild bookshop:

https://www.weltbild.ch/

Vaud and French-Swiss cuisine with David -

David’s blog:

http://www.daveblog.ch/

David’s book:

https://www.bergli.ch/collections/all/products/the-vaud-cookbook

L’Hôtel de Ville restaurant in Crissier:

https://www.restaurantcrissier.com/en/

Abbaye de Montheron:

https://www.montheron.ch/

Café du Grütli Lausanne:

https://www.cafedugruetli.ch/

Les 3 Sifflets Café:

https://www.instagram.com/explore/locations/267365050/les-3-sifflets-cafe/?hl=en

La Pêcherie restaurant:

https://www.restaurantlapecherie.ch/

Docteur Gab’s cidre:

https://www.docteurgabs.ch/

Brasserie du Jorat:

https://brasseriedujorat.ch/

Chez Raymond:

https://www.facebook.com/p/Au-vieux-Mazot-chez-Raymonde-100040925195528/?locale=fr_FR

Fribourg :

https://www.le-gothard.ch/fr/carte

• Hello everybody and welcome to another episode of Living in Switzerland. The series is brought to you by Rigby. We are a staffing and IT services company based in Zurich. If you or anyone you know of is looking for a new role in Switzerland, or if you're looking to hire, let us know. We'd be happy to help. The best way to do that is by sending an email to contact@rigby.ch.Today we are joined by two Swiss food writers, Jessica Manurung and David Moginier. Jessica is a Basel-based food blogger. She has been sharing her restaurant recommendations on social media since 2019. Last year, she published the Basel Cookbook, sharing a mix of innovative and traditional recipes from local chefs.Jessica, welcome to the show.
• Hello, thank you so much for the invite and the nice intro.
• I'd like to know just a little bit, to start, about yourself. So tell us, how did you get into food writing and what's… a little bit your background?
• Yeah, of course. So as you mentioned, I started my food blog in 2019 with a really big passion for food. I loved going to restaurants and I thought, yeah, why not share it on the internet and let Basel know a bit more about the variety of restaurants and cool places we have in the city.I also grew up in, like, a gastronomy family. So my dad is a chef and he owned a restaurant for about 10 years. So I was already a bit in the scene, you could say. And sharing about like the gastronomy scene or also hotels in the area is just a really big passion of mine and like my way of being part of this industry without actually working in a restaurant.And it's always been my dream to kind of work in the industry and help these restaurants get a bit more popular as it's a really tough business.
• Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And I think afterwards… with the pandemic, I'm sure it was even harder for all of them.
• Yes, for sure.
• And you've written a book about the cuisine in Basel specifically. So tell us what's maybe unique about Basel or why did you decide to write specifically about this city?
• So I grew up in the area. I've always lived here and I just really love the city and I think it has a lot to offer. And I had this exact idea, like for a book, already for a long time. I had, like, the rough idea written down in my notes app on my phone and then Bergli reached out and they more or less had exactly the same idea. And I was like, ‘Okay, this is a match made in heaven. We really have to do this.’So that was perfect and it was perfect timing. And the goal of the book is basically to share the diversity the local cuisine of Basel has to offer. I think we have a lot of international influences as there is a lot, like, a big expat community in the area with big pharmaceutical companies.And I thought it was interesting to share very traditional ideas, but also more modern ones or maybe take a new twist to one of the more traditional recipes. And during the process, I just learned a lot of things. It was super interesting to work with these creative chefs from different backgrounds and different restaurant philosophies and to create these wonderful recipes together.And what is really unique about Basel in my opinion is that it's truly a melting pot of Swiss and international cuisines. A good example also from the book is the recipe with TUYU tofu. So tofu is obviously not a traditional Swiss ingredient, but we have a super cool tofu manufacturer here in Basel that only uses Swiss raw products to create the tofu.And I just wanted to show these kinds of things in the book.
• Amazing. So what are your favorite Basel specialties? Maybe ingredients or dishes? What do you like best about the cuisine?
• Okay. So it's really tough to pick a few, but I am actually a really big fan of the classics. So at major events, like for example, Fasnacht is coming up soon.
• Just for the people who maybe don't know what that is, that's the carnival, which happens in early spring or late winter, doesn't it?
• Yes, exactly. And it's a really big deal here in Basel. So the city completely transforms for these three days and you get to eat a lot of super delicious food. And one of the must-tries at Fasnacht for me is for sure a 'Kääs- or Zibelewäie'.So this is basically, it's a bit difficult to describe in English, but it's a cheese pie. It's a really heavy food, but very, very delicious when you get it from a local bakery.
• I just wanted to say, especially because of the weather, also if it's really cold outside, you need heavy food like that.
• Yes, exactly. So at Fasnacht, you're basically walking around through the city all day long. So you're outside in the cold, maybe going from restaurant to restaurant, and then it's just perfect to grab a heavy, warm snack like that.And then overall in Switzerland, I think we are really strong with bread and pastries. So in my opinion, we have the best bread from all over the world.
• I think I would agree. So mainly, yeah, bread and cheese dishes a lot. But as you said, there's also a lot of other things like the tofu dish you mentioned. So a great variety.In terms of venues, is there anywhere, particularly, if someone's coming to Basel for the first time maybe, what venues would you recommend that they visit?
• Also here, super difficult to pick a few, but I would say if you're into really high-end fine dining, like Michelin starred restaurants, we of course have the Stucki, which is probably world famous, or we have also a newer player, for example, Roots.I think both of them actually have also quite a big selection of vegetarian or even vegan dishes.Then for meat eaters, I think Taverne Johann is really unique.
• And is that one in your book as well?
• Yes, this is in my book as well.If you like to eat meat, I think Taverne Johann is a perfect place to go because the chef who is also part of the cookbook that I published, he only uses meat from hunters.So first he uses the animal like, nose to tail principle. So each part of the animal gets used. There's basically close to no food waste. And because all the animals had to be shot, I think it's the most sustainable version of eating meat.
• Right. So he just uses animals that maybe were causing a problem locally or...
• Yes, exactly.And then for vegans or vegetarians, I really can recommend the restaurant Lauch or Concordia. These are both restaurants also from my book, and they are really focused on a vegetarian/vegan cuisine.Lauch has an additional focus on only using local ingredients. So you, for example, wouldn't find any dish that has pepper in it because pepper just doesn't grow in Switzerland. So he takes this like really strictly, which is very interesting. And he has to, I think, be really creative with his recipes, which is quite cool.
• Yeah. So you get to try something completely different, maybe, that's not something you would get in a typical restaurant.
• Yes, I think so.
• I have noticed that in your book, especially, there's a big balance between meat dishes and then vegetarian/vegan dishes. Is that very important in Basel? So do you think there are a lot of vegetarians in the area?
• Yeah, I think the scene is for sure growing. There are also a lot of vegan restaurants or bakeries and all kinds of these shops. But I think it's also a topic that was quite important to me personally, because I like to eat vegetarian or vegan dishes a lot.And I think the book should also be kind of like, inspiration of just like, what you could cook at home. Like you don't have to necessarily stick one to one to the recipes.And I just hope it gives some people maybe also nice ideas for vegetarian or vegan options.
• Yeah, I think it definitely does. And another emphasis is on not wasting ingredients. So I saw a few times in your book where you made notes about how to maybe reuse any spare ingredients you have from the recipe. Is that another big, sort of, idea at the moment with becoming more sustainable?
• I think Basel overall is like a very, you could say, like, green city or people living here value sustainability a lot. And all the chefs that I've worked with in the book see it as a part of their own mission, like to be sustainable in terms of ingredient sourcing or having vegan options or also, of course, like the longevity of their businesses and just being a good part of the Basel ecosystem, you could say.And food waste is of course part of that and a very big issue. And yeah, a lot of the chefs tried to create a lot of fun recipes in the book that help you reduce food waste also at home and also create just some awareness around this topic.
• Yeah, I think that's excellent. And are there any other trends in Basel at the moment in terms of food?
• Yeah, so we already touched on that. So veganism is quite big here in Basel. We have vegan donuts, vegan ice cream, cookies, restaurants, so more or less everything.And I think like, cooking according to seasons and using really local products is also quite a big trend.And then on the other hand, which is kind of the opposite, but also nice is all these new international cuisines from all over the world, like at Markthalle or Klara, these are two local food courts where also a lot of expats actually open restaurants.And yeah, because I think a lot of people, right when they move to another country, they miss the foods that they had at home.
• Yeah, for sure.
• At these two food courts, you can basically find dishes from all over the world, which is quite nice and refreshing, but then they cook these international dishes, but still use local ingredients. So I think this is really cool.
• So they can still have a sustainable business, even though it's not very traditional Basel dishes.Okay.One thing I really liked about your book was that you explained some of Basel's most important festivals and events, like for example, as we already mentioned, Carnival, but there are some others as well, like the Herbstmesse, the Autumn Fair.And are there any foods you'd like to highlight that are eaten maybe specifically in a season or at an event/festival?
• Yeah, of course. So we actually have like, kind of an event for each season.And in like winter, spring-ish, we have the Fasnacht, as you mentioned, or as we mentioned it before, it has foods like Mehlsuppe, Kääsküechli and Fastenwähe.These are all like, really heavy dishes that are perfect for the cold weather.
• Can you just explain Mehlsuppe, which is flour soup, which people might find weird if they've never heard of it before.
• Yeah. It's actually quite hard to describe. So it's quite a thick soup, I would say, like a brownish color. I think you sprinkle also a little bit of cheese on top.I don't know. I cannot explain the taste. You really have to come and try it.
• I think so. Yes. It's better than it sounds.
• Yes. And if it's too heavy for you, we have like, a cold summery interpretation of it in the cookbook.
• Right. Yeah. And then for spring, we have asparagus season here in Germany, which is like… the really big asparagus fields are basically right around the corner from Basel. So we're at the source.
• Because Basel, for those people who don't know, Basel is located right next to Germany, and you can just hop over and maybe half an hour.
• Yeah, exactly. And then in summer, Basel really blossoms, you could say. Everyone is outside, everyone is chilling at the Rhine and swimming.And we have a lot of local restaurants who open these small bars, you could say, at the Rhine, which are like pop-up shops, you could say. It's called Buvette.
• Right.
• And they sell a lot of local beer and small snacks and wines. So everyone is there when they're not working. So it's really crowded, but it's a really nice experience.
• Maybe a lovely time to visit Basel if you've never been before.
• Yes. And then in the fall, we have the Herbstmesse, which is that big autumn fair. It's like, all over the city with lots of fun rides and of course, tons of foods that you can try.
• Excellent. That's a really good insight into Basel. But what about some other German-speaking areas of Switzerland? Do you know any other dishes that are maybe eaten in different German-speaking cities or cantons?
• So the first one that comes to mind is the Züri Geschnetzeltes. It's from Zurich, as the name gives away. And it's meat in a heavy cream sauce, usually served with Rösti, which is like fried potatoes, but not like ‘Pommes’. I don't know.
• It's not French fries. Yes. It's like sort of a potato pie with grated potatoes, isn't it?
• Yes.
• Yeah.
• Not mashed.
• No, just grated.
• And then I think what Switzerland is also famous for is Bircher-Muesli.
• Oh yeah. Tell us about that.
• So like the modern version, you would call it overnight oats, I think. But it's like, already a long tradition in Basel. It's Haferflocken with like yogurt and you put it in the fridge and it's like, it's overnight oats. I don't know how to describe it.
• Yeah. Overnight oats with different, maybe different flavored yogurt, because a lot of people in Switzerland eat, maybe fruity yogurt or something. So you often put it in that, don't you?
• Yes.
• Yeah. And it's sort of considered a healthy breakfast choice, I suppose, compared to other types of cereal.
• And I think a lot of people also eat it for dinner, actually.
• Yes, because in German speaking countries, dinner is often the cold meal and lunch is actually the hot meal.
• Exactly.
• Yeah.
• So it's like, a popular dinner here as well, because it's easy to prepare and you do it the day before and then it's already done.
• That's right. Do you have any recommendations for where to go aside from the places you mentioned in Basel?
• Yes. So maybe to add a few more for Basel, just like, check out the old town when you're in the city. It's really beautiful. The Münster is a big church, like at the Rhine bord. We have a beautiful view of the city from there.And if you're here in summer, you should definitely visit the Rhine because it's so nice.
• And you can do swimming there. You can go swimming in it.
• Yes, exactly. You can go swimming. You can even rent like, these swimming bags that you need at Basel Tourismus. I'm not 100% sure, but I think you can also rent them if you don't want to buy one.
• Perfect.
• And then for maybe Lucerne, you can do like, paddle boarding or like, stand-up paddling on the Vierwaldstättersee and my favorite mountain in Switzerland is Pilatus, which is right next to Lucerne. So you should definitely visit this. And of course, the city is nice as well.
• And on the mountains, you can always find lovely places to go and eat local produce. And you might even see the cows where your cheese came from.
• Exactly. That's always a nice experience.And then for Bern, you of course have the beer park, Aareböötle in summer, which is also super like a fun experience, very popular.
• So you basically go in a little rubber boat down the river Aare and you can see the government building of Switzerland and everything. And it's, yeah, it's a very nice thing to do in the summer.
• And you can rent the boats. So I would recommend going there by train, rent boats so you have like, a safe one. And then do it like that.And then for Zurich, of course, also the lake. Zurich is great for shopping. And it has a lot of bars and restaurants.
• That's right.Excellent.So thank you so much for coming on.
• And thanks for having me.
• If listeners want to get in touch with you, can you just tell them where to find you,maybe where to buy your book?
• So I think it's best if you reach out to me on social media. My ‘at’ is @Basel_Eats.And you can buy my book online or in all larger booksellers, like of course, Bergli and Helvetiq or also Bider & Tanner or Weltbild.
• And we're going to put everything in the show notes. So the book is called Basel Cookbook and all the links are going to be in the show notes. So you can just check that out.All right. Now we're going to speak to David Moginier about food in the French-speaking part of Switzerland, particularly in the canton of Vaud.David has been a food and wine journalist for many years. He was in charge of gastronomy for the daily 24heures and has written his own cookbook, as well as several books by Michelin-starred chefs.He has just published Vaud Cookbook, a portrait of what people of Vaud eat today.David, welcome to the show.
• Hello. Thank you for the invitation.
• All right. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and how you got into food writing?
• I’ve been a journalist for decades and not especially in food and wine gastronomy, but I really always wrote about food and wine for decades. And I decided to specialize really in that for about 20 years. And I had my own text in L’Hebdo where I put recipes every week and wrote a lot of books for big chefs.
• So you were always interested in food. That's always been an interest for many years.
• For me, yeah. Since I was a child, I was already cooking when I was a child because I love eating.
• Yes, me too. But you're not a chef yourself?
• I'm not a chef, no.
• Okay.
• I work with chefs, especially in their book or I was in their cuisine with them to learn a little bit, but I'm not a chef.
• Yes, exactly. I read your book and you feature several chefs and restaurants there. Okay. Why did you decide to write specifically a book about the cuisine in Vaud?
• It's the editor who called me because they want to launch a new collection with books about every canton in Switzerland. And they knew me as a food journalist. So they asked me if I would be interested to write it. And it was really a nice project.So we worked together also with the Basel version to make the project, to define exactly what we want to put in the book. And it was really a nice adventure.
• And maybe before we get started for the listeners who don't know so much about Switzerland yet, what is Vaud? So what can you tell me just a little bit about the canton maybe?
• Yeah. Switzerland is a big country with the four languages and 26 cantons, which is sort of a state, like in the United States. And every of them are quite independent and there's a specific food and specific things to drinking and so on.So Vaud is the biggest French-speaking canton in Switzerland. Must be the third biggest canton in Switzerland, but there are more in German part.
• Exactly.
• Yeah. So Vaud is just around Lausanne near the Leman Lake, which is the biggest lake in Western Europe. And it's also very interesting because we've got lakes, so we've got fish and we've got mountains, we've got cows, we've got a lot of things to eat in the canton Vaud.
• Right. So lots of potential ingredients. Yeah, so it's definitely a canton… Even if you settle in a different part of Switzerland, it's definitely worth visiting.
• Yeah, it's worth visiting. Yeah. We’ve got a three-star restaurant, a lot of two-star restaurants and so on. So nice places.
• All kinds of places. So what are maybe some of the most traditional ingredients or dishes that you can eat in Vaud?
• Yeah. As I said, we are very lucky in the canton. I would say that the most specific thing that we have is fish from the lake and very nice cheese in the mountain because we are doing every summer, farmers are putting their cows in the mountains and doing their cheese in the mountain directly from the milk from the cows. So I would say that's two things very important in here.But we have also a very large variety of agricultural products because we are also a big farmer canton.
• Right. So lots of sort of, local products you can create, lots of different dishes.-Yeah. So it's a very long tradition and a very huge tradition of products and people doing recipes from their ancestors and very traditional things are really specific to Canton de Vaud. Some others are specific to Suisse romande, which is the French-speaking part of Switzerland. So we are sharing some recipes with the canton of Valais or Fribourg or things like that.
• That's right. So what’s maybe one of the most traditional dishes that one can eat in Vaud?
• One of the most traditional dishes could be cabbage saucisse. It's a sausage mixed with cabbage that we are producing only in winter. And traditionally we are eating that sausage cooked in the water.And beside we make a mixture of potatoes and leeks, papet Vaudois, which is really very specific to us. One other thing that we are very proud of is perch fillets. We've got perch everywhere in other countries, but it's really a big tradition in Canton de Vaud, eating perch fillets just beside the lake.So we don't have enough perch in the lake. We have to import them from other countries.
• So some of it is local, but not all of it anymore now.
• No, not of that anymore because the lake is not big enough to produce so many perch.
• Right. And what about some venues? Are there any places you would recommend for visitors?
• I would recommend a lot of places. In the book we just tried to select five different restaurants representing diversity in the food.But I would say that the first place to go is to Crissier, which we have, L'Hôtel de Ville, which is a three-star restaurant, which is very unique in the world. It's the fourth chef with a three-star in the same restaurant for about 40 years.I would recommend also a very nice place in the forest called Auberge de l'Abbaye de Montheron. It's in the woods near Lausanne and the chef is cooking only ingredients from the area, especially plants from the forest. It's really very gastronomic, but with very local ingredients.If you're looking for very traditional food, you can go to the Café du Grütli in Lausanne, where you can eat very nice fondue, choucroute, sauerkraut.
• Sauerkraut, yeah.
• Or that specific sausage, or in Les 3 Sifflets in Vevey, where they bring you fondue with a big ceremony, very, very funny.If you want to eat fishes, go to La Pêcherie in Allaman, really a very small restaurant on the beach. You are eating on the terrace near the lake, you get nearly water on your feet and you can eat very nice fish.And the last thing to do would be to go in the mountain, to go in an alpine chalet and to eat fondue, looking at the wonderful view and just seeing the cows producing the milk you are eating beside the chalet.
• That sounds great. And of course, we'll put all of that in the show notes. So if you missed any of that, you can just look it up in the show notes.Are there also any local drinks you would recommend?
• Yeah, we are very proud in Canton de Vaud of the Chasselas.Chasselas is a variety of grape that was born in the area and we are producing a very dry white wine with it and we are very proud of it because it's the only wine I know that is really fresh and dry when it's young.But if you just forget it in your cellar, it would become a very different wine 10 or 20 years later and very complex and very nice. So this is a very specific drink in Canton de Vaud.And beside the Chasselas, we've got also a lot of craft breweries like Docteur Gab’s or Jorat Brewery in the area producing very nice beers.
• OK, so people can try both wine and beer that is local to the area.
• Yes.
• OK, excellent.So now let's move on to the desserts. I grew up in Switzerland and as a child, I always ate carac, and that's sort of, a green dessert. I'll let you tell a little bit more about it.And I never knew until I read your book that that actually comes from Vaud. So maybe you can tell us about that and some other popular desserts in the area.
• Carac is not scientifically, it's not really proved that it's coming from Vaud, but a lot of people are saying it's coming from Vaud.It's sort of a chocolate pastry covered by a green icing and it looks like the canton's flag. So..
• That's right. It’s green.
• And really, it is. Yeah. And it's really a very traditional dessert in the Canton de Vaud.We also eat a lot of salée au sucre. It's a strange word, salée au sucre, salty with sugar. There's no salt in it. It's just sort of a leavened cake covered with a sugar cream that we eat a lot.And we're also eating a tarte à la raisinée. The raisinée is a pear or apple juice reduced for a long time in a copper cauldron until it becomes a sort of tangy syrup, very sugary. And we put it on a tart and just cook it. And it's really very traditional in here, but also in Canton de Fribourg.
• Interesting because I've actually never tried that. I need to go to Vaud and actually try that.
• But you can also use a raisinée in salty recipes, in salty meat, with, for example, meat. So a lot of chefs are using raisinée to add recipes than a simple tarte.
• To add a different flavor, maybe.All right. So let's talk a little bit about trends in Vaud at the moment. So in your book, I noticed that there's an emphasis on very seasonal dishes. So a lot of the chefs maybe use products that are in season in the region at the moment. Is this one of the biggest trends?
• Yeah, it's one of the biggest trends, especially since the Covid. And people are very more paying attention to what is in season, what is local, where do the products coming from. So more and more chefs are just quoting their producers and using wine lists to focus on the area.But it doesn't stop people from eating pineapples or drinking French wine. Because we also have in Vaud a real passion for world cuisine, Asian, Middle East, and these days Peruvian cooking is a really big trend and opening every week a new restaurant with Nikkei fusion food between Peru and Japan, which is very tasty.
• Interesting. Okay.
• But at the same time, people are looking for the products from the area. It's sort of a schizophrenia.
• Yeah, so I think it's a very good trend also more environmentally friendly, isn't it? If you're not importing everything.
• It's also because of the climate and a lot of other things.
• Exactly. So you mentioned a little bit that some of these dishes are not just relevant to Vaud, but they are also eaten in many other French-speaking areas in Switzerland. So are there any other traditional dishes in other areas of the Suisse romande?
• Yeah, there is. It's a small area. It's less than 2 million people. But every canton has got specific habits.For example, in Genève, the most representative charcuterie is longeole, pork sausage flavoured with fennel. It's really tasty and very good.In Valais, in the mountains, it's the home of the raclette, cheese that you melt in front of the fire and just scrape onto the plate and eat with potatoes and acid things.
• That's very popular all over Switzerland now, isn't it?
• But it's coming from Valais.In Fribourg, I would say that cheese fondue is a real tradition and they are using moitié moitié, which is half half, using two specific cheeses from Fribourg, which is Vacherin Fribourgeois and Gruyère.And I would say that in Neuchâtel, tripe is served with a kind of vinaigrette, very specific and they are very proud of it.
• And they also have a lake, don't they?
• They also have a lake.
• In Neuchâtel.
• Yeah.
• They're also eating some fish from the lake. So, same as in Vaud, that some of it is imported and some of it is local. Yeah, from the perch, but they've got other variety of fishes that are specific to their lake and we don't have in Leman.
• Right. Yes.Do you have any recommendations for where to go and what to do in these other areas?
• Yes, you can go, for example, if you want to eat raclette, you can go to Chez Raymonde, Restaurant Le Mazot, in Evolène. They have a very traditional raclette in front of the chimney and it's very, very local, very nice.I would say that you can eat a cheese fondue in Fribourg in a very traditional place called Le Gothard, just in the old town of Fribourg. But you have also a lot of star restaurants in all the cantons with very interesting chefs cooking very modernly, more modern than cheese.
• Right. Yes. So, you can really find anything from very traditional to more modern or fusion cuisines.
• Yes. Yeah, really. And specifically in Geneva and Vaud, which are more world-oriented than traditional cantons like Fribourg or Valais, which are more traditional, I would say.
• Right. Yeah. And thank you very much. That's all been very interesting.Can you tell us, just to end, how listeners can get in touch with you if they have maybe follow-up questions or anything?
• The best way, I've got a blog called Daveblog.ch where I put recipes and wine things and so on. And you can just send me a comment or mail on it.And they can also buy the book, the book, by the publisher website, which is bergli.ch. That's the best way.-Excellent. Yes. And I would highly recommend that they do that.All right. That's it for today.So thanks once again to our two guests, David and Jessica, for joining us and to you for listening.We'll include links in the show notes to our guests and to further materials about some of the topics that we've spoken about today.Once again, this podcast was brought to you by Rigby. We're a staffing and IT services company here in Zurich. If you would like our help either to hire or to be hired, let us know. Best way to do that is by sending an email to contact@rigby.ch.You can also sign up for our newsletter at rigby.ch/newsletter to receive our Living in Switzerland guide. We'll send you one email per month about expat-focused news and jobs in Switzerland. So thanks and until next time.

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